Should we believe Akira Toriyama

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Should we believe Akira Toriyama
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 18 2014, 06:09 PM (5,527 Views)
Topographic Oceans	Jan 18 2014, 10:49 PM Post #31
Posts: 1,788 Group: Member Member #10,681 Joined: January 5, 2014 Gender Male Favourite Anime Action Comics Favourite Manga Detective Comics	Ketchupis Ultionis Jan 18 2014, 10:35 PM TheDoc Jan 18 2014, 10:07 PM I agree that Toriyama is more lazy than forgetful. I mean, it's natural to forget somethings of a work if you finished it many years ago. But forgetting important plot points that were relevant for a good chunck of the manga or even worse, forgetting whole characters, can only be labeled as laziness, really. Being lazy was Toriyama's greatest weakness as a writer; he showed signs of it even when writing the manga. edit: how was Kuririn the most useless human? He is the human who sufferd the least from the whole characters becoming useless thing. I agree. The whole Android/Cell saga to me just screamed re-hashed concepts. The only new concept in the Arc was Trunks's time travel. Even Cell himself was simply a composite of everything that we already knew characters for, and as a villain, he seemed fairly generic to me. I know that I'm one of the only people here who believes that the Cell Arc was crap, but had a few shining moments every now and then. The Cell arc is also one of my least favorites. The time travel plot worked great at the begining, but then it started getting confusing. Things like time travel are not supposed to be written in the "Writing by the Seat of Your Pants" way Toriyama wrote his manga. Such a thing demands a lot of careful thinking, and it turns into a mess if you don't plan it beforehand. It also seemed like the villains were only there to be fought. All villains before got at least some sort of context but here it's just "random androids for the Red Ribbon Army appear! Fight them!", "three more ramdom androids appear! Fight them now!", "a monster from the future appears! Fight him!". The whole thing of bringing back the Red Ribbon Army with a scientist we never heard of before just saw like a excuse to have new enemies for the characters to fight. Also, they did an awful job eith expositon dump this arc. Toriyama was just becoming lazy, and creating new villains for the heroes to fight. It has it's good moments, tough. Gohan's transformation in the Cell games was cool, in fact, most of the Cell games were cool. If Goku just died there and didn't come back, it would be a great conclusion to his character arc. edit: petewentz Yes, Toriyama's word is proof of a claim. It to me is not absolute but rather a piece of evidence from which to draw our conclusions from. The manga itself, the source material, will and forever always be it's own separate body of work. Stuff like Krillin>Tien is stated in the manga and then the creator of said manga confirms it as well. There's nothing to justify that not being true. Simply nothing. Now if Toriyama said something like "well Nappa was actually stronger than Vegeta but I didn't wanna keep drawing Nappa every day so I had him killed off" doesn't mean Nappa>Vegeta...ever. Toriyama's statements about his manga do not take precedence over his manga. Question; What if Toriyama said "Frieza was just boasting about his PL being over a million...it wasn't really" how many of you would buy that? Just curious...that's a little bit tougher of an example than the Nappa thing... That's pretty much my opinion in the subject. In the Freeza thing, i think i would go with his power being 1 million. The manga comes before than word of god when we are talking about canon. Edited by Topographic Oceans, Jan 18 2014, 11:08 PM.
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TheGmGoken	Jan 18 2014, 11:01 PM Post #32
Posts: 1,995 Group: Member Member #10,673 Joined: January 4, 2014 Gender Male	TheDoc Jan 18 2014, 10:07 PM I agree that Toriyama is more lazy than forgetful. I mean, it's natural to forget somethings of a work if you finished it many years ago. But forgetting important plot points that were relevant for a good chunck of the manga or even worse, forgetting whole characters, can only be labeled as laziness, really. Being lazy was Toriyama's greatest weakness as a writer; he showed signs of it even when writing the manga. edit: how was Kuririn the most useless human? He is the human who sufferd the least from the whole characters becoming useless thing. I'm so sorry. I meant to say useful haha. Hence why the rest of my post didn't match up. Pete I know that I'm one of the only people here who believes that the Cell Arc was crap, but had a few shining moments every now and then. Actually I hate the Cell Arc(Well dislike it...not hate it) as well. So you're not alone. Pete once again I agree. The whole Android/Cell saga to me just screamed re-hashed concepts. Yea. His ideas during Freeza, Boo Arc and Saiyan Arc though(I'm talking only about the Z portion) was amazing Doc Gohan's transformation in the Cell games was cool, in fact, most of the Cell games were cool. If Goku just died there and didn't come back, it would be a great conclusion to his character arc. Really? To me Gohan was worst characters during the Cell Arc. Edited by TheGmGoken, Jan 18 2014, 11:03 PM.



+ Ssj3vegito96	Jan 18 2014, 11:03 PM Post #33
Posts: 10,327 Group: Elite Member Member #10,438 Joined: November 2, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man Favourite Manga DB/Z/S	I wouldn't trust toriyamas recent statements. During the making of battle of gods toriyama said he forgot a lot of stuff for example he thought ssj2 was ssj3. He already had statements that contradict battle of gods which shows he doesn't know what he's talking about anymore
	IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock


TheGmGoken	Jan 18 2014, 11:05 PM Post #34
Posts: 1,995 Group: Member Member #10,673 Joined: January 4, 2014 Gender Male	Ssj3vegito96 Jan 18 2014, 11:03 PM I wouldn't trust toriyamas recent statements. During the making of battle of gods toriyama said he forgot a lot of stuff for example he thought ssj2 was ssj3. He already had statements that contradict battle of gods which shows he doesn't know what he's talking about anymore He also said that while he was making Battle of Gods he re REAd the entire manga. That or most of it. So most of his BoG interviews I can easily agree with. He thought SSJ2 was SSJ3 until he RE-READ the manga. Besides. Who blames him. Besides Kid Gohan. SSJ2 doesn't get ANY love.



+ Ssj3vegito96	Jan 18 2014, 11:11 PM Post #35
Posts: 10,327 Group: Elite Member Member #10,438 Joined: November 2, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man Favourite Manga DB/Z/S	What about his statement about ssj god goku in terms of power is a 6 while beerus is a 10. Beerus was only 10% stronger in the movie. Also he said he doesn't need to turn ssj god anymore because he absorbed it. Then why did he need to ssj and become 50x stronger to be able to fight on the same ground as beerus. He eventually lost the power completely too. It's been 5 years since buu saga and goten and trunks look younger lol Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jan 18 2014, 11:14 PM.
	IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock


Kienzan	Jan 18 2014, 11:11 PM Post #36
+ Posts: 757 Group: Member Member #8,751 Joined: December 29, 2012 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime Neon Genesis Evangelion, FMA:B, Hunter x Hunter 2011, Baccano!, Ghost in the Shell What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist, Dragonball	Not gonna answer the OP because my viewpoint has already been covered several times in this thread, but this viewpoint that AT is just lazy and not forgetful is a bit dumb. He forgot that Saiyans have tails because he was too lazy to remember? What the f***? When you're feeling lazy, do your thoughts evacuate your brains or something? It seems like excuses, lol.



Topographic Oceans	Jan 18 2014, 11:15 PM Post #37
Posts: 1,788 Group: Member Member #10,681 Joined: January 5, 2014 Gender Male Favourite Anime Action Comics Favourite Manga Detective Comics	Nobody said he forgot because he was lazy. In fact, Ketchup explained it quite well: Ketchupis Ultionis However, it's similar to a kid that doesn't do they're homework. They don't tell their teacher they didn't do it (because that would be admitting one was lazy), they just say they forgot it at home to avoid scrutiny. To me, it's the same thing about tails with Toriyama when he was asked.
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+ Kaboom	Jan 18 2014, 11:29 PM Post #38
Posts: 1,927 Group: Elite Member Member #9,984 Joined: August 24, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon Ball What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga One Punch Man	Ssj3vegito96 Jan 18 2014, 11:11 PM What about his statement about ssj god goku in terms of power is a 6 while beerus is a 10. Beerus' full power is a 10, but he was said to be using about 70% of it against Goku.



TheGmGoken	Jan 18 2014, 11:46 PM Post #39
Posts: 1,995 Group: Member Member #10,673 Joined: January 4, 2014 Gender Male	Ssj3vegito96 Jan 18 2014, 11:11 PM What about his statement about ssj god goku in terms of power is a 6 while beerus is a 10. Beerus was only 10% stronger in the movie. Also he said he doesn't need to turn ssj god anymore because he absorbed it. Then why did he need to ssj and become 50x stronger to be able to fight on the same ground as beerus. He eventually lost the power completely too. It's been 5 years since buu saga and goten and trunks look younger lol What does animation has to do with Toriyama? Goten and Trunks looks younger(I agree) but what the hell does that has to do with Toriyama statements. Kaboom already explained the whole Birsu being 10 and Goku being 6. Kienzen He forgot that Saiyans have tails because he was too lazy to remember? What the f*? When you're feeling lazy, do your thoughts evacuate your brains or something? No one said that he was too lazy to remember as that makes no sense. He said he "Forgot" but he was most likely being lazy and just didn't want to draw tails on everyone Saiyan. Especially if it's useless to the plot. We said that he was lazy because Saiyan Arc Gohan had a tail, SSJ3 Goku concept art had tails, and Broly's concept art had a tail. I doubt he forgot tails if by Boo arc he DREW a SSj3 with a tail. He was just lazy. Edited by TheGmGoken**, Jan 18 2014, 11:48 PM.



SaiyanHajime	Jan 19 2014, 12:34 AM Post #40
Posts: 224 Group: Member Member #10,689 Joined: January 6, 2014 Gender Male Country United Kingdom Favourite Anime DBZ	Artists are fallible. People, in general, are fallible. There's no absolutes here. If an artist says "my art is not about that" then I guess you have to respect that, but the reality is that art is to be interpreted. This is, to me, what makes fandoms interesting. Or should that be what makes life interesting? It's possible to find sense in unintentional nonsense.
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Topographic Oceans	Jan 19 2014, 01:18 AM Post #41
Posts: 1,788 Group: Member Member #10,681 Joined: January 5, 2014 Gender Male Favourite Anime Action Comics Favourite Manga Detective Comics	Toriyama is a flawed writer, but he did manage to create a engaging story that's still being debated 20 years after it ended, and that's surely something. He gave more depth to his characters than people give him credit for, and the way he drew his fights, power ups and all those things influenced a whole genre, and that's also something. All writer's are flawed, really. It woudn't be that cool to read a pitch-perfect series with no flaws at all. Goken Really? To me Gohan was worst characters during the Cell Arc. The only problem i have with the Cell games is that Gohan had no build-up, but his transformation was beautiful, specially in the anime. His whole fight with Cell, including the final Kamehameha are some of the things that make one of the weakest arcs in the series, if not the weakest, interesting. But then again, it's my opinion. I've seen plenty of people that didn't like how Gohan was played in that arc. Edited by Topographic Oceans, Jan 19 2014, 01:23 AM.
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